From: fuzzyamy	Date: May 5th, 2005 03:08 pm (UTC)		(String)

Yeah, it's a free country. You're free to sit on your ass, but if you're going to complain about something, I better not see you on said ass.

Here, here.

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 03:18 pm (UTC)		(String)

Well, it's common sense.

:thinks about what happened to Thomas Pain with all his common sense:
:uh-oh:

It just kills me that people are complaining "OMG THEY NO SPEAKEE ENGRISH!" when ESL classes in Virginia are filled to the point where they have waiting lists. Bah.

-E.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 5th, 2005 06:09 pm (UTC)		(String)

Yes, and those who don't speak English "should just learn it already." Like it's an easy language.

How is the program you work with funded? By the state? I work with a local literacy/ESL council, and while they are a non-profit through Literacy America, they also get some money through a program with local grocery stores (just like local schools--you choose which one you want your points card affiliated with and they get a percentage of every dollar you spend). If they haven't already done so, harnessing the shopping urge might help VA programs like yours.

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 06:27 pm (UTC)		(String)

Like it's an easy language

Hee. You made me snarf animal crackers! One of my favorite jokes is that nobody speaks English as poorly as a native speaker. (My workplace seems to confirm this idea.)

We work through Catholic Charities, which gets money from tithes and grants. Also, from the endless stream of parties they throw where they charge us volunteers. ;D

-E.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 5th, 2005 08:03 pm (UTC)		(String)

Snarfing animal crackers? Wonderful! (That is unless snarfing is a painful process.)

I've always enjoyed discussions of speaking English well vs. poorly--it's a lot like arguing over the marker of fluency. Who gets to say, and how do we tell?

Then again, that's the devil's advocate in me--in all honesty, if one can't communicate clearly with other speakers of his language, he's crappy at using his native language. The end.

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 08:35 pm (UTC)		(String)

I've always enjoyed discussions of speaking English well vs. poorly--it's a lot like arguing over the marker of fluency. Who gets to say, and how do we tell?

I always loved the scene in My Fair Lady where Eliza is being tested by the eeeeeeevil Hungarian linguist at the dance. And his verdict?

"he announced to the hostess that she was - a fraud!... Her English is too good, he said, that clearly indicates that she is foreign, whereas others are instructed in their native language, English people are-n't. And although she may have studied with an expert dialectitian and grammarian, I can tell that she was born - Hungarian! Not only Hungarian, but of royal blood. She is a princess. Her blood, he said, is bluer than the Danube is or ever was. Royalty is absolutely written on her face."

:laugh: I love that speech.

From: lschiere	Date: May 5th, 2005 07:22 pm (UTC)		(String)

English is one of the harder languages to learn, from what I am told. Interestingly, the scientists at NIH (back when I worked there) tended to get more upset when I ignored errors than when I instinctively corrected them. Perhaps that was just because they are scientists and thus different? I do not know.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 5th, 2005 08:14 pm (UTC)		(String)

I would say that English is one of the hardest--it is certainly one of the most irregular languages available. At least from a linguistic (that is, language production and perception) standpoint, errors themselves are much more fascinating than instinctive correction, and instinctive correction is more interesting than purely correct speech.

Having taught English as a second language for two years, I can say with some certainty that it's a wild-and-crazy language, and not always in a good way.

From: lschiere	Date: May 5th, 2005 09:01 pm (UTC)		(String)

You have lost me I am afraid. I was referring to *me* instinctively correcting *them*. the French and Chinese scientists would make mistakes, particularly with pronouns, and generally wanted me to provide the correct word. I am not sure that's related to your reply, I think you are referring to self correction?

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 6th, 2005 01:40 pm (UTC)		(String)

Oh, my apologies--I misunderstood. I was indeed referring to self-correction, as I thought the scientists were passively observing you as the whole group worked on some project.

That sounds like a fascinating environment to work in (but again, one of my interests lies in multilingualism). Were you the token native speaker of English?

I'm reminded of something I heard while visiting Shanghai--VW is one of the most popular car makers in China, so it seemed natural to open a large plant there. When they built the plant and brought in both German engineers and Chinese workers, the language barriers were so great that they decided to use English as the official plant language. (Aha! Our cultural imperialism continues!)

From: lschiere	Date: May 6th, 2005 02:08 pm (UTC)		(String)

Not quite the token native speaker, but there were certainly more foreign scientists than not. NIH is a very interesting environment to work at from a multiculturalism perspective, it was also an interesting place to work from a computer perspective, which interested me far more. ;-)

In the particular lab I worked in (LNLC, you can find it if you search long enough, but there is not much interesting on the web), I worked with (over the course of 3 years there was some turn over) 2 people from France, 2 from Russia, 2 from China, 1 from Japan, 1 from India, 1 from Greece, who had learned English in GB (and had a decided British accent), 1 British person, 2 unknown oriental person (I am *guessing* non-american based on accent, but 1 left a month or two after I started, so I am unsure where he was from, and the other came just as I was leaving, and I never asked), and 1 person from Chechoslovakia (spelling). Add into the mix 10 Americans (mixed races here also, but less interesting linguistically, 8 was the peak Americans, general population did not drop below 15 at any given time). You also came into daily contact with people from other labs, I spent most of the time on the 3rd floor of "building 49" (I don't know the name, no one used it, everyone just used the various building numbers), which we shared with two Human Genome labs. So overall, it went from about half to something below half Americans. I was however the one of only two in the lab not a neuroscientist, and thus not participating in the fairly high level of jargon. (Do you know what a "dendrite" is? I have a *vague* idea of it now. ;-)) Given that I got to set up, maintain, and fix their computers, conversations with me tended to hit areas of language not in general use in the lab. With one of the Chinese scientists, who was actually taking ESL classes because he could read English, but not really speak it, I learned the importance of simple diagrams and stick drawings of computer concepts to get ideas across.

This has gone on more than long enough, I am no doubt boring everyone reading the comments here to death, much less our host.

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 6th, 2005 02:49 pm (UTC)		(String)

I am no doubt boring everyone reading the comments here to death, much less our host.

Nah.

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 6th, 2005 02:52 pm (UTC)		(String)

My only rules here are: be nice and don't do anything that you wouldn't do to people you see in person.

Other than that, anything goes.

From: lschiere	Date: May 6th, 2005 02:12 pm (UTC)		(String)

It is not *entirely* cultural imperialism btw. Again referring to my experience, quite a few of the more important scientific journals are English-only, and so even the scientists who struggled speaking English could generally read the subset of the language you would find in, say, Cell Magazine. It made communication possible for someone like me. ☺

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 03:19 pm (UTC)		(String)

PS. "Thomas Paine." Gah. It's hard to type and feel ranty at the same time.

	From: chinagirl0	Date: May 5th, 2005 04:06 pm (UTC)		(String)

Bring us your inexpensive goods, your services,
but the huddled masses need to stay there.
In some faraway Shangri-La of kiddie labor
and quaint indigenous lifestyles for our table
of National Geographics and native candlesticks.

Yes. Well said.

Oh, I feel like we could sit for hours and rant and rave together and perhaps, in the end, find a bit of healing, or at least more motivation for action.

	From: fuzzyamy	Date: May 5th, 2005 04:10 pm (UTC)		(String)

This, you know, could happen. We could (dramatic pause) make it happen.

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 05:57 pm (UTC)		(String)

What Amy said, lady.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 5th, 2005 04:51 pm (UTC)		(String)

Us. You. Them.
Hrumph.

There is no group free from division, no region that does not have contempt and discrimination, no language that does not define through opposition. But do not think I am defending anyone, especially Americans. (Though I do find it a small positive that ethnicity-based violence is less common than it used to be. Kind of.)

The only thing I will defend is Krispy Kreme. Would you consider replacing it with KFC, a corporation I find much more insidious?

And there are so many people to help, so many lessons to teach, so many clinics to man, so many rights to fight for. It's easy to get overwhelmed and caught up in the rhetoric of humanity, in the big, billowing We should's. The best we can do, I think, is what you are doing. One step, one class, one student at a time.

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 05:41 pm (UTC)		(String)

Us. You. Them.
Hrumph.

See, I think in my vagueness, I made it sound more confrontational. I wanted to say "Hey look at me as me, and not as 'token minority who can join your great white brigade' or part of 'strange brown scary people.'

I need to retool that, I think. I do know that I have seen a lot of resentment from a lot of very self-satisfied co-workers. (Mostly white, but I need to retool that too.)

I don't think I can change Krispy Kreme because:

1.) These anecdotes are real. Regrettably, all too real.
2.) These people are happily consuming the product while disparaging the hardworking producers. This irks me. Hugely.

But KFC is insidious. I mean, why don't they call it chicken anymore? I feel a conspiracy theory coming on.

It's easy to get overwhelmed and caught up in the rhetoric of humanity

This is very true. I think that this is the good intent that leads to Hell. (Or at least the Counterrevolution.)

-E.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 5th, 2005 06:49 pm (UTC)		(String)

I suspect I sounded confrontational as well, though that is not what I intended. My sincerest apologies! What I was harumphing over was really the way terms of differentiation are often used as weapons or lines in the sand. By calling someone them, it is easier to ignore so many humanizing details, while us seems to create the sociolinguistic equivalent of the Greco-Roman tortoise formation (testudo, though some say phalanx).

--Interestingly enough, phalanx was later used in the 1930s by Italian facists.--

I have so much to say about KFC--I think I'm working on a post about it, but I'm still much too angry to recollect in tranquility. See the clip that horrified me:
http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/anderson-vid.asp

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 07:24 pm (UTC)		(String)

Ah, chickens!

First, I have to say that I am still omnivorous. Here's some interesting stuff though:

I remember when someone linked to a website that advertised Bright Coop's chicken catcher and it made internet news. (See the video.) Of course, there was an outcry -- nothing screams "heartless dystopia" quite like chickens being grabbed by a vacuum en masse. Vegetarians cried in their blogs. Right-wingers exulted in forums at the sight of comical efficiency.

Here's the kicker: the vacuum is the best bet for humans and chickens. Chickens don't get traumatized by the handling process, and humans don't get desensitized and cruel in handling chickens.

(Note: I am a huge fan of Temple Grandin, and her work in providing a pleasant environment for animals. She puts out great publications on the subject.)

On a more surreal note: the chicken gun.

-E.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 5th, 2005 08:18 pm (UTC)		(String)

:sighing ruefully: I am still omnivorous too. I am trying to slowly wean myself off meat, or at least purchase from suppliers that do their work ethically (while I still have the money to do so).

And I hate to say it, but I did think the chicken vacuum video was kind of funny. Until I thought about their experience and possible injuries. I like the newest version, though, and I like the pressure larger corporations are putting on suppliers to use them.

Why does the name Temple Grandin sound familiar? Has she written about autism as well?

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 08:25 pm (UTC)		(String)

Frankly, the chicken catcher cracks me up. Joe thinks that a huge version should be used for riot-control. I find the idea of protesters getting sucked up to be just as improperly amusing...

Yes, Ms. Grandin is a famous case of high-functioning autism! (Good catch.) She has a chapter in Oliver Sack's "Anthropologist on Mars" (which is how she describes herself on Earth) and thinks that her autism is a non-human state of mind that helps her work with animals.

-E.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 6th, 2005 01:22 pm (UTC)		(String)

Aha! I am quite a fan of the good doctor's stories--although I have not yet read his Anthropologist on Mars yet, I'm sure someone recommended Ms. Grandin's chapter specificially. I'll have to go and Wish List the book at once!

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 6th, 2005 01:31 pm (UTC)		(String)

Oh yes, and I second Joe's riot-control idea. Actually, I'd be more willing to see the machine used on humans than chickens, but I suspect that comes more from my misanthropic sense of humour...

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 05:48 pm (UTC)		(String)

Okay, revised. Check it out, lady!

I am still holding onto Krispy Kreme. I do love them too. Especially hot, at 0300, washed down with a swig of milk.

-Cheers,
E.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 5th, 2005 06:56 pm (UTC)		(String)

Mmm.. donuts... Excellent stuff. :D

From: dreamalert	Date: May 5th, 2005 06:19 pm (UTC)		(String)

but the huddled masses need to stay there.
In some faraway Shangri-La of kiddie labor

But . . . but . . . but, then who would do all the crap jobs in this country that I'm too lazy to do?

	From: baranoouji	Date: May 5th, 2005 06:36 pm (UTC)		(String)

"I want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening?"


ROBOTS.

-E.

From: lschiere	Date: May 6th, 2005 06:13 pm (UTC)		(String)

Getting kids to accept robots: http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=4&id=335992 (you may also be able to find it in the Sydney Morning something or another)

	From: xanthamarioff	Date: May 5th, 2005 08:57 pm (UTC)		(String)

My personal unfavorite is "they no comprehend-o".

No, English is not easy. And it's not like people who criticize are also the ones who speak several other languages themselves - so far as I've noticed, they tend to speak only English, and it's never the formal English of voice-trained speakers.

For a country supposedly founded on respect for cultural/religious differences, we're off course in a hundred ways.

	From: elsabeta	Date: May 6th, 2005 12:48 pm (UTC)		(String)

For a country supposedly founded on respect for cultural/religious differences, we're off course in a hundred ways.

Here, here.